ardent

Alone in a world so cold



Hati

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Tealah

The Ooze Participant
12-28-2013, 06:53 PM

Hati was trespassing, and he knew it. He simply didn't care.

Unlike his brother would have, Hati was not doing it as a taunt, a look-at-how-much-better-I-am, a stupid joke. The border had simply butted up against his current path, and he saw no reason to change his direction just because a pack had pissed on the trees there. He wasn't interested in the so-called sanctity of pack territory. The only territory boundaries he cared to uphold were the ones that belonged to him - though that was currently zero. This other pack could go rot for all he cared.

His path was barely within the bounds of Glaciem territory, following the boundary fairly closely as he stalked along. His gold eyes burned furiously against the inky blackness of his pelt, glaring around as though every twig and pine needle in his path was an affront. Muscle rippled beneath his bristly fur, each step powerful with ever-present, and barely contained, directionless rage.

"Speech"

Hati isn't nice. He swears, he is violent, and is more than a little insane. If you can't handle what might come of that don't thread with him.

Hati wears a bear skull on his head unless otherwise stated in the post. He also has a ram's skull that might be switched in sometimes if he finds it again.
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Isardis

Loner

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12-28-2013, 10:55 PM




Isardis was more than aware of the trespasser, loitering solemnly amidst the earliest hours of night-fall; drowned out by the violet glow of a dying sunset, the haunting cries of a rising moon eerie to the harks of a hidden angel in disguise. He stalked, traced, winding silently between the pines that accumulated within his Kingdom, his home; nobody quite knew his paradise like he did. Those that infiltrated his borders, disrespected the outraged yelling of cease, denied the stenches delivered via blind nostrils, deserved no less than what they bargained for. Perhaps the ebony had been unlucky it was the pale King that became aware of his presence, or perhaps he was wholly lucky he had crossed the man?s path when he was in a particularly good mood. ?Are you enjoying gambling with your life, little black?? his voice rung free, melodic and seamless as it wove from cherry lips, silver bodice knitting from his concealed location.





Hati

Somnium

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Tealah

The Ooze Participant
12-28-2013, 11:23 PM

The voice coming out of nowhere caused Hati to pause mid-stride. He swung his heavy head in the general direction, bright eyes narrow as he searched for the source of the vocalization. "If I am, it's my life to gamble with," he growled. "Who's asking and what's it to you?"

His own voice was perhaps a touch more aggressive than it was wise to be when on another pack's territory, but Hati had never been overly concerned with such niceties, and it was basically his default mode of speaking anyway. His thick fur rippled and bristled as he regarded the surrounding area suspiciously.

He understood the need as part of a pack to patrol one's territory, but it irritated him to no end to be dragged away from his travels because some idiot was worried about him walking over a chunk of land. Not that he had anything against packs. He just didn't think much of a pack he wasn't a part of. Of course in his old pack, the son of the alpha and one of the stronger warriors, he'd have shredded a trespasser rather than speak to them as this wolf was, so there was that too.

"Speech"

Hati isn't nice. He swears, he is violent, and is more than a little insane. If you can't handle what might come of that don't thread with him.

Hati wears a bear skull on his head unless otherwise stated in the post. He also has a ram's skull that might be switched in sometimes if he finds it again.
Help keep my thread list updated so your thread isn't forgotten!



Isardis

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12-29-2013, 01:52 AM




The albino chuckled weakly, utterly bemused by this unfamiliar?s nerve to overstep his imaginary line; the words that sunk from foul lips were enough to crease his mind into wavering, internal grins of pleasure. Isardis pressed closer, the duo no more than two meters from one another as the King stood proudly, muscles rigid in preparation to retaliate to any false movements. ?It?s nothing to me, as it is to you, trespasser,? voice was folded about the edges, flickering with the delights of the ebony?s presence, ?Your wellbeing depends entirely on your words, your actions, your intentions; or is your brain as useless as the rest of your senses?? well, he had been foolish enough to cross borders unseen, he was probably foolish enough to make yet another wrong move.

Isardis wouldn?t spare a second to skin the man from head to toe, if he proved to be of any threat to Glaciem?s health or numbers. Or perhaps Isardis could really play the game, and force-claim the creature where he stood? To force him into a life of enslavery. Oh no, he would be no less than a nuisance, useless to have around. He stood tall, proud; dominance evident within every molecule of his being, tail lifted as hackles bristled, the smirk that wound his lips defying the aggression within his stance. He quietly prayed this man would make a wrong move, for it would keep him wholly in practise with his ways.






Hati

Somnium

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Tealah

The Ooze Participant
12-29-2013, 02:18 AM

Hati's ears pinned back at the ghostly alpha's words, a snarl creasing his muzzle and baring his fangs. Fury roiled through his chest, molten, fighting to break free. He had always hated more than anything being taunted and belittled, to not only given less than his due but also being made the butt of a joke.

"My brain works just fine," he snapped irritably. "Only thing I'm not getting is what makes you think you're so hot. What's so great about your pack, then? Why the hell's everyone in this damned place so scared of the big bad Glaciem?"

All he'd heard since he'd gotten to this place was "blah blah blah, Glaciem wolves are evil, blah blah." Not that he'd spoken directly to anyone - why the hell would he? - but that had been the general impression he'd gotten. And it was stupid. Hell, look at this pale pink-eyed freak they'd sent to confront him, all alone. Weak. He'd seen nothing to convince him that this wolf, or the pack he represented, were worth Hati's time. His golden eyes wandered back to the path he'd been traveling, considering just moving on and seeing what the wolf did.

"Speech"

Hati isn't nice. He swears, he is violent, and is more than a little insane. If you can't handle what might come of that don't thread with him.

Hati wears a bear skull on his head unless otherwise stated in the post. He also has a ram's skull that might be switched in sometimes if he finds it again.
Help keep my thread list updated so your thread isn't forgotten!



Isardis

Loner

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12-29-2013, 03:04 AM




For a while Isardis was to be satisfied to see the adventurer simply move on, but his rude tone and false sense of dominance would begin to itch at the pale monsters skin, squirm beneath his flesh and tap at his core. To be disrespected, to not be looked up to? well, it just didn?t sit well with the King, and he certainly wasn?t ?used? to it. He chuckled weakly, taking a daring step closer, threatening to destroy the space that kept the duo separated, ?You choose the wrong answers boy, and yet you do it with wisdom,? he would begin to chuckle, so impressed, however the bubbling of pleasure soon transformed into a low growl, pale ears pulling back against tapered skull, ?I will show you why we are respected, yes??

Without any further suggestion of warning Isardis would lurch forwards, attempting to approach the man from front on, if not slightly to the ebony?s left; he would strive to close the distance between them in a single bound, left shoulder blade jutted with calculation as he would attempt to pummel it into the left, upper side, above Hati?s chest and more towards the tender regions of his throat. He wanted to strike with power at the creature?s lower oesophagus, to make him splutter and breathless, or at least wind him and cause adequate bruising and discomfort. Within a similar moment Isardis? skull would snake left, eagerly attempting to grasp the left hand side of the imposters neck/scruff region within hopeful jaws; wanting to take a firm hold and maintain it as best he could, to potentially sink deep into skin and flesh.

In the same instance the albino would reach out with his right forelimb, seeking to wrap it around the outside ankle of Hati?s left foreleg; and to attempt to pull it heartlessly, mercilessly back towards him. He wanted to trip him, shift his weight. Virtually simultaneously the man would pull his neck and skull to his own right, hopeful to hold any successful grip, and send the potentially unbalanced man rag-dolling to his left side (Hati?s left), to hang all his weight from The King?s hold against his scruff, so wishful to hear skin tearing beneath his jaws. His left forelimb would slide back beneath him, still stable, however wanting to keep it out of reach of the offenders jaws. His usual defences stood strong; eyes narrowed, ears pinned, spine aligned, tail tucked, jaws ready, balance distributed equally as limbs remained square, chin tucked as much as was possible, abdomen tense, muscles rigid, toes splayed as nails would grip for traction, hackles raised, shoulders rolled, elbows bent and chest lowered.

Isardis vs. Hati ? Round 1 of 2?

For Dominance.






Hati

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Tealah

The Ooze Participant
12-29-2013, 11:28 AM
Hati Hr??vitnisson

There was very little warning when the ghostly wolf finally attacked, leaping forward. But Hati was above all else a warrior, and instinct flared at the sudden motion. His pelt bristled, shoulders and neck hunched in a manner to protect his spine, eyes narrowed and ears back to protect them if the ghost chose to snap at his face. His brushy tail flagged behind him for balance. Four paws held his weight equally balanced.

He realized almost too late that the other wolf didn't intend to simply bowl him over, and had to react quickly to protect his vulnerable throat. Too quickly to think it over, to come up with a better way, he reared up, sacrificing his solid hold on the earth to take the blow painfully on his chest rather than his throat. His right paw attempted to snake overtop Isardis' shoulders or back, hoping to anchor him so the blow would not topple him completely. At the same time he snapped downward, attempting to drive his jaws into the top of the other man's scruff near the base of his skull, seeking a hold that would hold him on his feet as well as hopefully injuring the other wolf. He would grind down with his jaws viciously, trying to strengthen any grip he may have managed as well as hoping to cause more damage.

At the same time though he felt the other wolf's teeth sink deep into his left shoulder, the bite bracing him from falling even as it hurt him, then the sudden vicious pain as the wolf's head whipped to the side, taking a chunk of skin and fur from Hati's left shoulder. Even as blood ran down his leg to stain the snow beneath the pair pink, Hati snarling sought to powerfully drive his considerable weight down on the other man and forward, hoping that his nearly-perpendicular angle would give him the advantage and allow him to shove the other wolf over, or at least unbalance him.



Fight Stats



Round: 1/2 for dominance

Defenses: Ears back, eyes narrowed, pelt bristled, shoulders and neck hunched to protect neck, weight balanced. Reared up to take initial blow on chest, right paw attempting to hook over Isardis to give him balance


Attacks: bite toward the scruff of the neck at the base of the skull with the intention of holding on, jaws grinding down trying to do more damage, weight driving down with the intention of throwing Isardis off balance


Injuries: bad bite to left shoulder (missing chunk of fur and skin, bleeding badly), slight bruising to the front left side of his chest


Out Of Character Notes: At first I was like yay fight for Hati! Then I was like, omg it's Yumpy and Isardis... Hati what have you done?! Haha. I've never actually finished a fight before so expect major suckage. That said... yay fight for Hati!


Hati isn't nice. He swears, he is violent, and is more than a little insane. If you can't handle what might come of that don't thread with him.

Hati wears a bear skull on his head unless otherwise stated in the post. He also has a ram's skull that might be switched in sometimes if he finds it again.
Help keep my thread list updated so your thread isn't forgotten!



Isardis

Loner

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12-29-2013, 09:53 PM




The man would rise somewhat unexpectantly, Isardis? left shoulder sent to rapid contact with his lower left (?) chest. The albino snarled, irritated, feeling the man attempting to reach with his right forepaw over the left (?) side of Isardis? nape. The Kings jaws had come to land against the ebony?s left shoulder, falling low beneath the skin, Isardis was happy to inflict damage; but he wasn?t satisfied. With his opponents right foreleg reaching up for the left side of his nape, Isardis would release any standing hold against the male?s shoulder, bared jaws shifting leftwards; hoping to close ambitiously around the man?s upper right elbow, which should have been exposed and stretched out in his motions. He wanted to clasp into the soft flesh that loitered between the elbow and chest (potentially approaching from the inside of the limb), but angle his skull in a left-way manner that he could potentially also grasp over and behind the elbow itself. If he could, he would hold there, using his pointed canines to try and pierce through vital muscles and flesh.

However he hadn?t managed to go without pain, as Hati?s teeth came to clasp into the loose skin directly behind his skull, piercing a few centimetres into the bunched leather that protected his spinal column. The scruff was a sheltered consign, fatty and rolled with skin, and so Isardis would find himself somewhat relieved; however the pain was still enough to fuel him into rage. He was defending his turf, and he wasn?t going to be bested by this amateur. His swipe towards the boys limb had proven unsuccessful with the man standing, but he wasn?t deterred. He re-aligned his limbs, standing square, eyes narrowed, ears pinned, spine aligned, tail tucked, jaws ready, balance distributed equally, chin tucked, abdomen tense, muscles rigid, toes splayed as nails would grip for traction, hackles raised, shoulders rolled, elbows bent and chest lowered.

He felt the ebony attempt to bring his weight down against his left (?) side, The King?s square stance supporting him against the sudden rush of power. Instead he felt himself being pushed downwards, straightening his knees in an effort to remain stable. His skull rotated slightly to the right, hoping to have a sustained hold near the elbow, pointing his tapered crown towards the mans right lower throat and upper chest, he would push forwards with his hind end, attempting to force the fool?s unbalanced weight backwards, knowing he wouldn?t have much stability on his hinds, and wanting flip him or completely throw him. Within a moment, his neck would crane, lowering slightly after his push, arching over at his shoulders whilst presuming the ebony still had a hold against his scruff, and rebalancing his weight against three limbs, Isardis? right forepaw would reach upwards towards his own face, and over. With pointed toes he attempted to push forcefully at the trespassers eyes, not only wanting to push him off, but hopeful that his bared claws could pierce into the mans tender left eye socket.

Isardis vs. Hati ? Round 2 of 2

For Dominance.

Attacks: Attempting to bite where the right forelimb meets the chest, and into the soft muscles there. Rotating his crown to press against the mans rightwards chest/neck, and pushing forwards with his hinds in an effort to force his balance backwards/flip him. Right forepaw then lifting to reach up towards the mans left face, trying to shove him off and pierce the eye and/or sockets.

Injuries: Moderate bite wound to the scruff skin behind the skull.




Hati

Somnium

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Tealah

The Ooze Participant
12-31-2013, 08:32 PM (This post was last modified: 12-31-2013, 11:36 PM by Hati.)
Hati Hr??vitnisson

Hati's forceful push had proven unsuccessful, drawing a frustrated growl from a muzzle full of his enemy's white pelt. The growl turned to a snarl of pain and anger when the albino's jaws clasped over his upper right foreleg, just above the elbow. Missing the joint itself and the bone, barely, due to the way he'd pushed forward, the bite still pierced into the muscle. The pain fueled Hati's berserker fury, igniting a fire in his gold eyes and turning his vision red.

Tightening his jaw in an attempt to keep his hold, Hati whipped his head fiercely side to side, like a terrier with a rat, trying to shake Isardis in the hopes that he'd need to let go. The attack was short-lived, however, as the albino had shoved into him, trying to push him over backward. Even in his rage, the feel of his paws slipping, of losing what little grip on the firm terra he had, sparked alarm in Hati.

He threw his weight forward once more onto where his chest and jaws rested on Isardis, and onto his right leg where Isardis' jaws gripped it. He would feel the wound tear a little from the weight if Isardis chose to keep his hold, but he would bear down anyway. With most of his weight on his front rather than his hind legs, Hati would kick them back slightly, sprawling out for better balance so that as he was pushed, he would simply slide, his tail flagged behind him to act as a counterweight for balance. As his feet momentarily left the ground he would twist his body so that when he landed, it was more to Isardis' right shoulder rather than in front of him. His left paw would come up despite the pull on his injured shoulder, attempting to hook over Isardis' back and pull him closer. As it did he would release whatever hold he still had on the albino's scruff and instead drive his jaws toward Isardis' head, intending to close his fangs around the wolf's ghostly muzzle, or if he fell short he hoped to at least catch one of the alpha's pinned ears.



Fight Stats



Round: 2/2

Defenses: sprawls weight on Isardis for balance, flags tail straight out to balance, spreads rear legs apart and back for balance and to prevent being pushed back, twists body to face Isar's right shoulder


Attacks: tightens jaws to hold onto scruff, attempts to shake Isardis by the scruff, hooks left paw over Isar's back, attempts to bite Isardis' face


Injuries: Round 1: bad bite to left shoulder (missing chunk of fur and skin, bleeding badly), slight bruising to the front left side of his chest Round 2: bite to the upper right humerus (muscle only)


Out Of Character Notes: Sorry it took so long! It was really hard to translate moves that I'm used to using in wrestling into wolf terms... Also I've been sick. lol.

EDITED because I forgot to fill out my Fight Stats, which was totally lame of me, pretty sure I didn't miss any of them


Hati isn't nice. He swears, he is violent, and is more than a little insane. If you can't handle what might come of that don't thread with him.

Hati wears a bear skull on his head unless otherwise stated in the post. He also has a ram's skull that might be switched in sometimes if he finds it again.
Help keep my thread list updated so your thread isn't forgotten!



The Judge

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01-19-2014, 12:08 AM



ISARDIS vs HATI for DOMINANCE


Round 1

isardis?

clarity ? 10 out of 10 ; nothing of note.

powerplay ? 7 out of 10 ; isardis? attempt to pull to his own right to further off balance hati depended on whether or not both of isar?s attempted attacks to the neck and forelimb succeeded, and while it was not directly an ?if this, then this,? statement, i still looked upon it that way, and therefore saw it as too much movement on isar?s part (-3).

defense ? 9 out of 10 ; eyes narrowed, ears pinned, tail tucked, jaws readied, squared limbs, chin tucked, abdomen tensed, toes splayed, nails gripping, hackles raised, shoulders rolled, limbs bent to lower body. failure to redistribute balance as isar lifts his right forepaw off the ground (-1).

attack ? 9 out of 10 ; shoulder thrust to upper left chest/lower left throat (+3), bite to lower left-sided neck (+3), pulling hati?s left forelimb out from underneath him (+3).

injuries ? 10 out of 10 ; first round.



round one isardis total ? 45 out of 50







hati?

clarity ? 2 out of 10 ; failure to specify where on hati?s chest isar managed to hit and the damage done from it (-3). failure to specify which shoulder or side of isar hati is attempting to snake his right forepaw around (-1). failure to mention details on hati?s shoulder injury, i.e. moderate-sized chunk of flesh, measurements, etc (-2). failure to specify where on isar hati attempted to throw his weight down upon (-2).

powerplay ? 6 out of 10 ; ?He would grind down with his jaws viciously?? this should be made as an attempt or an intention should his bite to isar?s scruff succeed (-1). ??hoping that his nearly-perpendicular angle?? isar had rushed hati from head-on and slightly to hati?s left, and since hati had made no movements to make him perpendicular to isar, this was an assumption of position (-3). I didn?t take off any points for this, but even though hati reared back to essentially avoid isar?s swipe, it should still be acknowledged within the post so it doesn?t appear as if it didn?t occur at all.

defense ? 5 out of 10 ; hackles raised, shoulders thrown forward, neck scrunched (this wouldn?t protect his spine though), eyes narrowed, ears pinned, tail out, weight evenly distributed. didn?t take off any points for the failure to redistribute his balance as he rears back because he attempted to maintain his balance by throwing his forelimb around isar. subtracted points from initial score for major exposure of his neck by reaching over isar?s head to obtain his scruff (-2).

attack ? 5 out of 10 ; bite to scruff (+3), attempt to force his weight upon isar (+2, points not awarded in full, refer to clarity section).

injuries ? 10 out of 10 ; first round?chunk taken from left shoulder, half-inch in depth and three-fourths of an inch in diameter (unspecified in the post, so I made this injury as I saw it fit).



round one hati total ? 28 out of 50




Round 2

isardis?

clarity ? 6 out of 10 ; isar?s attack to hati?s left eye seemed unrealistic to me, not only because it would severely compromise isar?s balance for him to lift his forelimb higher than his chest, but because hati had reared back to bring his skull even higher. also, it didn?t seem practical that this attack would land when hati had a grip on isar?s scruff, which is behind isar?s head (-4).

powerplay ? 8 out of 10 ; ??he would push forwards with his hind end?? given hati and isar?s close proximity, this should have been made as an attempt (-1). ?Within a moment, his neck would crane, lowering slightly after his push?? the wording here makes it seem as if it was assumed that isar successfully managed to push into hati (-1).

defense ? 10 out of 10 ; limbs squared, eyes narrowed, ears pinned, tail tucked, jaws readied, weight evenly distributed, chin tucked, abdomen tensed, toes splayed, nails gripping, hackles raised, shoulders raised, limbs bent.

attack ? 6 out of 10 ; bite to hati?s front right elbow (+3). pushing forward to knock hati off balance (+2, points not awarded in full, refer to pp section). swipe at hati?s left eye (+1, points not awarded in full, refer to clarity section).

injuries ? 8 out of 10 ; mild puncture wounds to scruff (-2).



round two isardis total ? 38 out of 50







hati?

clarity ? 0 out of 10 ; ?With most of his weight on his front rather than his hind legs, Hati would kick them back slightly?? not only did this seem unlikely when isar is pushing into hati, but this defense mechanism to maintain hati?s balance seemed counterproductive due to the fact that he would have no footing whatsoever to keep him from falling backwards; it would make pushing hati over all the more likely (-3). failure to mention which side of isar?s back hati is attempting to hook his left forelimb over (-1). ??intending to close his fangs around the wolf's ghostly muzzle?? this attack seemed unrealistic due to the fact that isar has a grip upon hati?s right forelimb, which is totally out of reach especially with isar?s head pushing into hati?s chest (-4). failure to specify what hati wished to achieve by a grip to isar?s muzzle/ears (-2).

powerplay ? 0 out of 10 ; ?Tightening his jaw in an attempt to keep his hold, Hati whipped his head fiercely side to side?? these need to be made as attempts, as they are attacks (-2). ?He threw his weight forward once more?? this seemed improbable and unfair to me since isar had pushed forward with the intentions of throwing hati backwards, and yet hati managed to somehow throw himself forwards while being sent backwards; it didn?t quite add up. this also should have been made as an attempt given the close proximity between isar and hati (-5). failure to incorporate isar?s swipe attack into the post (-3, I would have subtracted more from this had isar?s attack been logical).<

defense ? 1 out of 10 ; tail out. didn?t count anything in regard to hati?s balance because all attempts to maintain his balance seemed counterproductive.

attack ? 3 out of 10 ; tightened grip upon isar?s skull, followed by thrashing movements (+2). bite to isar?s muzzle (+1, points not awarded in full, refer to clarity section).

injuries ? 7 out of 10 ; half-inch deep puncture wounds to upper right forelimb (-3, unspecified in the post, so I made this injury as I saw it fit).



round two hati total ? 11 out of 50




Totals:

isardis ? 83 out of 100

hati ? 39 out of 100



And the winner is...

isardis! hati must give up by either fleeing, passing out, or submitting.

Damage:

isardis ? moderate puncture wounds to scruff, will fully heal in three ooc days.



hati ? moderate-sized chunk missing from left shoulder, will fully heal in five ooc days and will permanently scar over. moderate puncture wounds to upper right forelimb, will heal in three ooc days and may complicate moving slightly.




Notes:
yumpy ? really nothing worth mentioning other than the realism of your last attack; just note that it'd really compromise a wolf's balance to raise their limbs higher than chest-level unless they were sitting down c:



tealah ? do not feel discouraged with your score; i am simply a bit nitpick-y with my judgings :p my advice for you would be to include as much detail as you can within your fight posts, acknowledge each attack thrown in your characters' way, perform realistic motions, and incorporate as many defenses as you can into your posts to increase your defense section. fighting through roleplay is a skill that takes practice to fully grasp, so i definitely believe your scores will increase with time c:




great job guise c: <3




[ judging by aly ]








Hati

Somnium

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8 Years
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Male
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Tealah

The Ooze Participant
01-19-2014, 09:02 PM

Hati drove his jaws toward Isardis' muzzle, intending to catch hold of it. Instead he rapped his sensitive nose sharply on some less-than-cushy body part - Isardis' skull? his own leg? he really couldn't tell, but it hurt like Hel - and yelped in surprise and pain. How had that happened? Through the rage and bloodlust he was becoming aware of a creeping weakness in his limbs, a trembling of muscles. Weeks of smaller caloric intake than his body was used to, coupled with the bloodloss from his shoulder as well as the wound in his leg, was catching up to him much faster than he'd have expected, had Hati been the kind of wolf to consider those things at all.

He shook his head sharply, but the damage was done. The damned albino's push forward had unbalanced him already - the weakness in his legs completely undid him, sending him over backwards. He flailed wildly, trying to twist himself in midair to land on his feet, but all he managed was to turn just enough to land heavily on his already injured shoulder.

The pain made him nearly black out right there, but the black wolf's rage nearly pushed him through it. He struggled half to his feet, snarling and ready to fight, but the world around him swam crazily, causing his snarl to taper to a queasy gurgle. The terrain seemed to be darkening around the edges as a ringing started in his ears, a blackness spreading quickly into the center of his vision.

His last thought before the blackness swallowed him and he pitched forward on his face was Shit, I hope no one saw that.

"Speech"

Hati isn't nice. He swears, he is violent, and is more than a little insane. If you can't handle what might come of that don't thread with him.

Hati wears a bear skull on his head unless otherwise stated in the post. He also has a ram's skull that might be switched in sometimes if he finds it again.
Help keep my thread list updated so your thread isn't forgotten!